biggest issue facing NH fly fisherman

[Ken B]

Just wondering what NH fly fisherman thought was the biggest issue we face. Is it stream habitat, stocking practices, too little ff only watersland development...I'm just throwing those out as ideas. What do you think.

Ken B

[mer]

"Private Property, No Trespassing"

in places where there used to be access.

Homes being put up too close to the water, trees cut down and removing all kinds of shade to keep the water temps down.

[fessiewig]

I see more and more development being done with total disregard on how it impacts the environment. The strange part of it is, it's the environment that has drawn these people to build houses and camps in the first place. So they destroy what they seek. I can remember times on the Connecticut in Pittsburgh when you could find a spot all to yourself and if someone did come along they made sure not to disturb your fishing. You can't do that anymore. What's our biggest problem as fishers? Too many people trying to fish the same places. Too many people trying to own a piece of heaven and then not wanting anyone else to intrude on their space. Just plain too many people!

[Remote Trout]

What fly to use! :lol:

[Venzulo]

I see more and more development being done with total disregard on how it impacts the environment. The strange part of it is, it's the environment that has drawn these people to build houses and camps in the first place. So they destroy what they seek. I can remember times on the Connecticut in Pittsburgh when you could find a spot all to yourself and if someone did come along they made sure not to disturb your fishing. You can't do that anymore. What's our biggest problem as fishers? Too many people trying to fish the same places. Too many people trying to own a piece of heaven and then not wanting anyone else to intrude on their space. Just plain too many people!

Couldn't have said it better fessiewig, as far as southern NH goes. So many people have caught on to "Live Free or Die" that it is hard to live freely now. I moved out of Maine because it was feeling like one big summer home. NH is now no better. If you want a truly unfettered fly-fishing experience, go to VT. I miss living there every day. - V

[fessiewig]

I hate to tell you this V, but VT isn't much better. I live on the border (Littleton) and fish the "big three" (Lamoil, Winooski, & White) and find plenty of company.

In my mind the best time to fish is the fall when bird hunting cuts down the fishing population some. Although more and more fishers are discovering the fall and it's now starting to get crowded. UHGGGG!

[Venzulo]

There are always the known sections, but you also have the Little river, the Dog, the Mad, Otter Creek and the Huntington, not to mention several smaller creeks and tributaries. I can remember entire days of fly-fishing (before wife and kids) without seeing another person. All dry-fly fishing and fairly regular hatches. Best part is that there are mid-summer options where you have spring, or dam-fed streams that stay cold (Little). Or places like the LaPlatte in Shelburne that offer awesome river smallie fishing on the fly, not to mention "the" lake. -V

[BugChucka]

Development...
population increase...
People from Massachussetts... :evil:

[fessiewig]

Ease off here. About 75% of the population of NH is from Massachusetts. :P

[BugChucka]

LOL.... I'm just being honest

[fessiewig]

As "Big John" would say . . . "smile when you say that, partner".

[BugChucka]

:D

[PW]

Maybe we should come up with a fundraiser/plan to have FFINH purchase some river/waterfront property. Protect it from development and allow FFINH members to fish it.

[Venzulo]

Ease off here. About 75% of the population of NH is from Massachusetts. :P

Didn't you also say "Too many people trying to fish the same places. Too many people trying to own a piece of heaven and then not wanting anyone else to intrude on their space. Just plain too many people!
???

Sounds like you have a complaint, yet don't want to complain?

I don't care where people come from, it isn't going to stop anytime soon. If you live in northern VT or NY you bitch about Canadians, so it is never-ending.

[overmywaders]

When I am knee-deep in my favorite stream there are no problems.

I know that I am suffering the laws enacted to curb the foolishness of the few -- for example, no matter how wild the stream, I cannot start a small open fire by streamside for lunch or tea anymore. I can't cut a green sapling for a wading staff. These are restrictions necessary to our modern crowded state... but I miss the old days.

Do we need more regulations? I don't think so. Most of our coldwater fish are stocked, not wild, and many of the streams won't hold them through the summer. The idea of more private waters is not feasible because Great Ponds must allow access and any worthwhile large stream could be dubbed "navigable" and access couldn't be denied (if entered from public property).

Maybe I should go fishing and even those few problems mentioned will disappear.

Best regards,
Reed
www.overmywaders.com

[fessiewig]

I stand by my statement. I just don't think we need to get personal and we were headed in that direction. There are people from Vermont, Canada, and all over the Northeast moving to NH, no need to single out our friends in Massachusetts as the problem.

[PW]

I'm curious. I've heard of this "Great Pond Act" mentioned before. What exactly are the laws pertaining to it. Isn't it something like you can access a certain sized water body over land if the land isn't posted. Could somebody clarify this?

[overmywaders]

Paul,

The ordinance related to Great Ponds is from 1641 and was adopted from Mass. For example:
Everie Inhabitant who is an hous-holder shall have free fishing and fowling, in any great Ponds, Bayes, Coves and Rivers so far as the Sea ebs and flows, within the precincts of the town where they dwell, unles the Freemen of the same town, or the General Court have otherwise appropriated them. Provided that no town shall appropriate to any particular person or persons, any great Pond conteining more then ten acres of land: and that no man shall come upon anothers proprietie without their leave otherwise then as heerafter expressed; the which clearly to determin, it is declared that in all creeks, coves and other places, about and upon salt water where the Sea ebs and flows, the Proprietor of the land adjoyning shall have proprietie to the low water mark where the Sea doth not ebb above a hundred rods, and not more wheresoever it ebs farther. Provided that such Proprietor shall not by this libertie have power to stop or hinder the passage of boats or other vessels in, or through any sea creeks, or coves to other mens houses or lands. And for great Ponds lying in common though within the bounds of some town, it shall be free for any man to fish and fowl there, and may passe and repasse on foot through any mans proprietie for that end, so they trespasse not upon any mans corn or meadow. [1641 1647]

http://oll.libertyfund.org/Texts/LFBooks/Lutz0397/ColonialOrigins/0013_Bk.html

The right to fish any navigable stream dates back much farther. See a little article I wrote at http://www.overmywaders.com/articles/publictrust.html

Best regards,
Reed
www.overmywaders.com

[Blake P]

Land access,(please for give my spelling)..Hmmm. Its all about the access. NH has some mighty fine places. I mean real. Fine.
The population since I have been here has increased tremendously, over the last 20 years or so, not as much before that, you can blame it on TV. When I ws a kid i didn't like to go to Wolfboro, because there was no TV mabey a couple of channels depending on the weather.
When the cable TV came the people came. Now I don't go near the place and if I go there its during the week.
Alot of my spots when I was a kid are gone and thats not really to long ago. So how do we preserve it for our kids.
Well first off NH realizes this stuff and they do sell, LIVE FREE OR DIE, if I remember right the last Governor made it easy for people to move to NH or you had to start a business and you got breaks. It was something like that that I watched on Chronicle, you know the NewEngland magazine show?
I don't think it worked the way they wanted too but it was a great idea for southern NH. Remember when you didn't have anyone to plow your driveway well it did create alot of jobs and businesses for alot of people.
Now there are no tresspassing signs everywhere! If you do a little research or fish and game laws and access points you will really have no problem. Ask people why they post their land? And you will get a different view.
This started a debate with my best friend on the way to camp in Eroll, the paper company was selling a bunch of land and the state was trying to raise the funds and purchase it, I really can't rember what the outcome was but i know it was sold and didn't affect the lease on our property and they renewd the lease for another 20.
He told me, "Its best to keep the land private." Have yo uever been to a regulated state place and give access to everyone. Like Yellowstone.
Not thatit is for everyone there are still wide places in NH left that haven't been developed and we should keep it that way. He made sense!
Its funny now there used to be MassWholes now theres that guy is from NH. I have a friend who is a guide in Maine and he says most of his difficult clients are fro NH not Mass. Where did all these people come from and did they let LIVE FREE OR DIE go to there head.
Before you go fishing, ("Take A Check Up From The Neck Up!)

[Tom Jutras]

OK everyone take a look in the mirror. We are all people. I don't think too many are a problem if we could all respect our fellow anglers by giving them some space. Yogi Berra (spelling)? once said "nobody goes there any more it's too crowded". I can't wait till that happens. Unfortunately we live in a small state and we lack the vast wilderness areas that the larger states have. We share information on sites like this and maybe it also brings more anglers to places we fish. We need more space and more time to fish in remote places. Work a little harder in planning your fishing spots and be willing to go through some rough country and you will be rewarded with solitude and some good fishing. If you are fishing in places where there are crowds you might be a little lazy or just lack the time to go an an adventure. You wouldn't believe some of the places I've been. Sorry but I can't share that information with you!! It's not just fishing it's an adventure!!
So check out of the rat race every now and then, even if you really shouldn't and JUST GO!! I did it this week and I really needed it. I'm feeling much better because of it!! Now I guess I should get my butt back to work and catch up.

Tom

[fessiewig]

Well said, Tom.

Just a note . . . . for those of you who are able you should be fishing the less accessible spots. If for no other reason than there are people who can not get to those locations because of age or infirmity. If those who can get "out back" do so, that will make the spots that are more accessible less crowded for those who have to fish there.

[bmik]

My biggest problem is having enough time on the water! (in MA or NH!)
And...Bug Chukka....without MA people (or people from any other state) NH's economy would suffer terribly. By the way while I am from MA, I also own property in NH....I pay property taxes as you do, yet I must buy an out-of-state license to fish there.

Certainly environmental issues are a big problem. Unfortunately most of the real damage has been done over the last 150 years. Not until the latter part of the last century did we wise up and start taking measures to restore things and clean things up. The damage was done in the name of making money, therefore in effect it cost nothing to screw things up. The restoration will cost real money that will come from our pockets. iIt's gonna take a bit longer to get things back to where they should be...The good news is that there is an awareness and a lot of people are working very hard to prevent future destruction and to fix things.
My 2 cents! :!:

[BugChucka]

The state needs to identify those bodies of waters that can sustain naturally producing populations of wild fish and concentrate their efforts on them. They've began doing this to an extent. The state needs to stop burdening the F&G with issues that don't pertain to the actual Fish and Game. As it is, a good percentage of our funds go to areas outside our interests. If we concentrate on the high quality watersheds and put some work into them, we'll experience far better fishing. This is a short term appoach.

Long term- we have way too many people developing and towns need to start limiting and capping hard structure growth. Trees and waters if managed and promoted correctly can/will/and have drawn revenue in the past.

[flytackle]

I've found that my passion for bass and panfish has meant less crowds and lots of the real serenity that I love to find when fishing. Guys get obsessed chasing stocked trout - crowding rivers that are not only choked with anglers, but strangled by restrictive laws meant to establish "good fishing". Wild bass grow big and strong, and you can keep a few perch if you're interested in a shore lunch. Live Free or Die does mean something, doesn't it? I love NH, No real problems for me :D Alec

[fessiewig]

Alec,

What do you think about a warm water forum for this board? I was thinking about converting my trout fishing in the hot, hot weather to flyrodding for bass and other warm water species but would need a jump start with the usual question.

[Venzulo]

Fess, flyrodding for Bass is awesome. It is the only way to stay active around here from late June-September. I would not, however, set up a whole new forum. Segmenting forums has led to the demise of other sites. -V

[Squaretail]

One of the best weeks I ever had was over in Grand Lake Stream about 10 years right around Memorial Day with my day. We were fishing the Stream the first couple of days early AM then trolling Grand Lake for LL. with a guide during the brighter hours. We would then head back to various pools on the stream for the evening hatches. We caught some salmon and settled into the rotation on the pools as it was pretty crowded during the prime hours.
About the 3rd day the guide suggested we hit Big Lake for the Smallmouth spawn. It was incredible catching 2-3 pound smallies with my 5wt and any kind of fly or popper that you could throw. Great arial shows and as much as I love catching a beautiful brookie in a mountain stream- I'll flyfish for smallmouth anyday. They are a blast! But I agree that one general discussion site is best. Hopefully noone will be offended if the words bass or panfish appear occassionally.

[BugChucka]

Look, I'm not trying to start an argument here but I have to stand by my original statement. Nobody from NH that I know of begged for the massive influx of out of staters (primarily ex-Mass residents) that has taken place, but they all seem to think we have. Us poor old NH folk so dependent on all that big money...right? I don't think so. Our property taxes have soared and our way of life has changed do to the incresed introduction of views and political/economic beliefs not traditionally held by NH residents. The face of the state has drastically changed no matter which way you look at it. Take a look at the statistics and you'll notice where the influx is coming from. I'm not making this stuff up. I can't prevent the change, it has already happened, but how many more big money developments and private property signs do I need to watch get put up before I realize who is doing it? I know several Mass. anglers and many of them are awesome people, people are people no matter where you go. They admit to me that their old state is basically ruined...their reasoning for moving out. What can I say, if I was them I would to. So I guess I'll bite my lip now, continue to watch my state get ruined, and say I told you so in 15 years or so.

[Venzulo]

I totally agree, and I am sick of the "tourist dollars" argument, especially since I am from Mass#2 aka, Maine. However, putting things in perspective, we're all intruders on some level. If my great grandfather had stayed put I would have been a Masshole, if his father had stayed put I would have been a Nova Scotian, and if his father had stayed put I would have grown up in Scotland. It really sucks to have to share paradise, but the next time you start feeling agitated, put yourself in the shoes of a Native American. They're the only ones with a real argument. - V

[MJ]

Yes, well put! If we are going to have babies and then want them to live long, healthy and enjoyable lives, we will have to endure them living somewhere. Not only that, we have to expect and endure that they will tread where we might tread, utilize and/or consume the resources we might utilize and/or consume and, more than likely, think and feel differently about things than we, their predecessors, may have traditionally felt and thought. As outdoorsmen most of us are well aware of the principle of “carrying capacity”. Land has a finite ability to support a finite population, whatever that population might be. I find it impossible to believe that we as a people, as a species, can continue to expand our population unchecked much longer. All our talk about conservation and managing resources is mute talk in the face of unlimited population growth and resource utilization/consumption. Since we DO NOT control our human population as we do the populations of other species, then sheer logic tells us that our environment, and we, ourselves, are headed for a serious and sudden decline somewhere on down the road. We and our environment can easily tolerate a few “unenlightened” attitudes and behaviors when there are huge areas of fertile space. However, even if all in a population have conservationist views, when that population out paces its environmental carrying capacity…well, again, as with any such situation, both the environment and, ultimately, the over-sized population will crash. Soooooooo, what is the Biggest Issue Facing NH Fly Fishermen, is it the same issue that faces every fly fisherman, every hunter, every nature lover, every farmer, every factory worker, every man, woman and child. We just like making babies far too much.

[BugChucka]

With the immigration levels and reproductive rates of these new people, there is no doubt in my mind things will only get worse because of the population increases. Who the hell is going to edjucate these people on F&G laws anyway? It took hundreds of years for Europeans to get it straight and we're still recovering. It's not a pretty picture.

[bmik]

Yep....edjucation is the key. :wink:

[BugChucka]

It's an extremely optimistic approach to a grim scenario....... We need to edjucate those that are here, kick out those who shouldn't be, and ensure the trend is discontinued. This is our last hope of curtailing the population problem which directly effects sportsman and everyone's quality of life.

[bmik]

..there must be some books that need burning. I mean come on,,,where do all these new people get their ideas from anyway? They're gettin' edjucated the European way and that's just a mess.
We should start small though....Considering all the good fishing in Pittsburg we should consider re-establishing the "Republic of Indian Stream". Boot out those that don't belong and start edjucating those that we want to keep. No one gets in or gets out. If you don't live there, you don't belong there! Yeah, that's the ticket! :wink: :wink:

[MJ]

Oh, oh...is it starting to get hot in here? 8)

[Tom Jutras]

It's about fly fishing!! I think this is drifting to another point.

[fessiewig]

Let's move on to something else!